Curtiss P-36G

[Bearfire]

Saludos.

I am sorry I cannot write this in spanish, but hope that English will do.
I am a Norwegian plastic modeller, and loves to model aircraft and also make colourprofiles. At the time I am planning a series of Curtiss P-36's related to the Norwegian Air Force.
Peru got several of the aircraft intended for Norway, but very little is known about them.
Are there any photos available to establish how they were marked with insignias and codes and what colour they were painted?
What squadron(s) were they assigned to?

I should be very happy if anyone could help with some info on this topic. Thank you.

Kind regards
Bjørnar Norås

[MIKOYAN]

Here its the link ,
http://perudefensa.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=135

Otto maybe you can give this guy a hand.

See you.

Mikoyan8-)

[Veltro_28]

Hello Mr. Noras, welcome to Perudefensa

The Curtiss P-36G was obtained by the Peruvian Air Corps due to the Lend Lease agreement signed in 1942, on behalf of which, the EE.UU. will provide modern military equipment to Peru at preferencial prices. Those agreements weren´t honoured in the end.

Peru adquired a batch of 10 Curtiss P-36A-8 fighters, redesigned P-36G after norwegian forces return about 30 of them after completing their training @ Little Norway airbase in Canada. The worn out planes were divided between Curtiss (12 machines) and the USAF (18 ), but the US air force had no use for them as they were obsolete at every single operational belic theatre, and the engines were incompatible with those used by most US fighters. Peru, however, was eager to receive new fighters after the closure of Caproni Factory and facing the dwilling numbers of Ca.114 and NA-50 on its main fighter unit, the XXI Fighter Squadron. With the airforce against the wall and no other prospect available for fighters, 10 Curtiss P-36G were adquired in 1943, along with 13 Douglas Model 8A-5 (A-33), also previously used by Norwegian forces. Besides been in derelict condition, corrupt Mr.Prado administration paid an exhorbitant price for those machines.

Peruvian technicians selected the "better of the lot" machines from those available in Kelly Field, Texas, and got them back to flying condition (no ships were available for transport due to the war needs), for the long down south to Lima, capital of Perú. Accordingly, the 23 strenght group leave Texas on November the 1st. 1943, arriving to Las Palmas, Lima, four days later.

The machines were first allocated to the XXI (or 21) Fighter Squadron in Chiclayo, as replacement for the aging Ca.114s and NA-50s from that unit, which in exchange were sent to Las Palmas to serve as trainers. Then, in early 1944, they were transferred to the newly created 11 Fighter Squadron, in Talara. Soon after their arrival, two P-36 were lost during a mock up combat, both pilots perishing in their machines.

A second batch of 3 P-36 (to make up for operational losses, and for use as spare parts source) arrived on June, 1944.

As schemes is concerned, most machines arrived in Zinc Chromate green, while a few others sported a RAF brown/green scheme. Most machines were repainted black after arrival, however. By 1945 all P36 were deprived of paint and left bare metal finish, except for the anti glare panel ahead of cockpit.

No P-36 is preserved currently in Perú, confusion is made with the NA-50 preserved at Las Palmas air base.

Hope this helps.

Amaru

[Bearfire]

Thank you, friends.

This was very useful information!
I have searched the net, but have not succeeded in finding this kind of info, until now.

For my colourprofiles I need some photos to find the right kind of letters for the squadron codes and their placement.
I have found some photos on the net, but they are taken from a distance, and I can't even see if the rudder has the red/white stripes.

Are there any photos of the P-36 showing such details?

I should appreciate any help on this, and if you would like to see some of my profiles you can see them at home.no.net/bearfire/Profiles/profiles_main.htm.

I thank you for your kind help.

Kind regards,
Bjørnar Norås

[Veltro_28]

Dear Bearfire

Very nice profiles

As you confirmed with one of your profiles, Norwegian forces used some Hawks in green Zinc Chromate finish, which was know here as the "apple green" Hawks. My friend Otto Tiger will put a couple pictures soon, in the meantime I will check my references for unit badges. (they are truly difficult to determine sometimes, not clear pictures are available AFAIK)

All the best

Veltro

[OTTO_TIGER]

http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg156/Camanchaca/PERU/Amaru.jpg


http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg156/Camanchaca/PERU/SergPuen.jpg



Best regards


OttoTiger

[Veltro_28]

Hello again Mr. Noras

Do you know Mr. Arild Kjaeraas? I lost contact with him long ago, he did (and I believe still does) some nice series of profiles from aircraft operated by Norwegian forces or over Norway by other forces. I´d like to contact him again, as he was also looking for references about ex- norwegian machines (P-36G, 8A-5 , Catalinas and PT-19s), and back then I was unable to help him (am talking 6-7 years ago now)

Anyway, I will check my references for 11 Fighter Squadron insignia (XXI didn´t had an official shield as far as I know), and I will post it as soon as I obtain conclusive data.

Best regards

Veltro

[Bearfire]

Hello again.

You guys are fantastic! Very useful photos! Thank you.

Sorry for the late response - I have been out of town due to my work.

Yes Veltro, I know Mr Kjaeraas very well. I have made the profiles for the booklet about an aircraft called Hønningstad C-5 Polar, a one off aircraft.
I have contacted Mr Kjaeraas and given him all the info neccesary to make contact.

Have I understood it right this way:
1. The Hawk 75 kept their green color for a while after arrival and got Peruvian marking and squadroncodes like 11-14 with this green scheme?
2. They were painted black next (year?) and given a code like 11-3-3?
3. Their last scheme was bare metal with black anti-glare panel and code like 296 ?

Did they ever have red-white-red striping on the rudder? Cannot find this on any photo of the Hawk 75.

What happened to the Hawks? Where they scrapped or sold?
Are there any chrash-sites with remains of aircraft?

I am sorry I have so many questions, but this info I can't find anywhere else. So I appreciate every info you can give.

Thank you.

Regards
Bjørnar

[Veltro_28]

Hello Bearfire

we "Guys" just tried to help as far as we can!

Glad to know you can contact Mr.Kjaeraas, I have some data for him.


As far as the P-36Gs, There is one picture showing the aircraft on several schemes, some on what, if I recall correctly, you could identify as Green Zinc Chromate, others in two tone camo colours (British Mohawk colours ?) and others already bare metal. Your other pointings seems to be correct.

There is no "official" confirmation of the ALL BLACK P-36Gs, it its subject to discussion, as the scheme could be a type of dark green too, but definitely darker than green zinc chromate.

Regarding the Peruvian flag colours on the tails, no evidence of P-36 ever wearing those have surfaced, same aplies to the 13 DB 8A-5.

As for unit code, 11-3-3 follows the "Italian" type of identification for Squadron#, Section#, Machine#, used until mid 1944, when its use was discontinued.

All Hawks were left in Piura, and were most probably sold as scrap there when their time arrived, replaced by Republic P-47s (around 1947)

Besides the loss of two Hawks during a mock up combat in late 1943, no other major accident is registered, altough there were a number of minor accidents, mostly involving landing gear failures.

All the best!

ps. Would love to see one of your P-36 Profiles in peruvian markings, please post here if that happens.

Veltro

[Bearfire]

I am so sorry!
Please forgive me my misspelling - it was not intended.

I did not see it until I read you answer, then I could clearly see my mistake.
My only excuse is that english is not my native language.

Please accept my appologies.

With regrets
Bjørnar

[Bearfire]

Hi Veltro!

Of course I shall publish a profile of a Peruvian P-36 on this forum. I'll publish it when I have finished working on it.

Regards
Bjørnar

[Claudio Moura]

Estimados,

hay perfiles o dibujos desto aparato en la CAP?

Tengo uno en 1/72 de Special Hobby y a mi gustaria mucho hacer CAP, pero necessito de mejores informaciones de colores y marcaciones. Es possible obtener aca?

Saludos a todos,
Claudio Moura

[Veltro_28]

Hola Claudio

Special Hobby, si la memoria no me falla, saca el Hawk 75A-3/5 o P-36 con motor P&W de doble estrella. El modelo usado por el Peru en cambio es el Curtiss Hawk 75A-4/8 o P-36G, equipado con motor Wright Cyclone 1820 G-205 de 9 cilindros. En otras palabras, para representar un modelo a escala de una aeronave peruana debes usar mas bien la maqueta de Azur, en 1/72.

Respondiendo a tu pregunta sobre las calcas de este y otros modelos CAP/FAP, mandame un MP

~S~

Veltro

[Claudio Moura]

Ahhhh no me digas!!!!!! Grrrrrrrrrrrr :mad:

Bueno, voy a intentar a conseguir otro para hacer CAP, si conseguir todo que me falta para hacer ello....

Un gran abrazo y gracias por aclarar esta question.
Claudio Moura

[Veltro_28]

Claudio:

revisando mis archivos encontré un par de fotos que reducen mis dudas respecto a los colores de algunos P-36G peruanos. Aparentemente parte del lote fue pintado de RAF Dark Earth con RAF Dark Green (ó sus equivalentes norteamericanos), colores similares (sinó idénticos) a los usados en los Curtiss type 81 Hawk enviados al AVG (Flying Tigers).


Bearfire:

checking my files I discovered a few pictures of peruvian P-36 in what seems to be a RAF Dark Green over Dark Earth (overall) camouflage. I can send you the pictures, drop me an MP.

Regards

~S~

Veltro

[Claudio Moura]

Veltro,

puedes enviarlas a mi para tener en mi archivo y futuras pesquisas?

Gracias y aguardo t contacto.
Claudio Moura

[Bearfire]

Dear friends,

I haven't been able to visit your forum for a long time, due to a couple of circumstances.
First, I had to put my profiles in quarantine for a while for the sake of the magazine I was making them for. Then I have had a couple of computer crashes, loosing all my bookmarks and favourites. And it is not until tonight I have found this forum again.

I send you two of my profiles, one Peruvian and one Norwegian.

Hope you like them and sorry for the delay.

Kind regards,
Bjørnar

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg49/Bearfire/Profiles/CurtissH-75A-8_Peruvian.jpg

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg49/Bearfire/Profiles/CurtissH-75A-8_Norwegian.jpg

[Ian]

Dear friends,

I haven't been able to visit your forum for a long time, due to a couple of circumstances.
First, I had to put my profiles in quarantine for a while for the sake of the magazine I was making them for. Then I have had a couple of computer crashes, loosing all my bookmarks and favourites. And it is not until tonight I have found this forum again.

I send you two of my profiles, one Peruvian and one Norwegian.

Hope you like them and sorry for the delay.

Kind regards,
Bjørnar

Welcome back Bjørnar!! The profiles looks great! Do you have any details about the Hawks in service in Norway during the Second World War? As far I know, some of them were captured by the Luftwaffe, but I'm not sure about if they were used in combar, or purchased by Finland.

Greetings!

[specialoperator]

Hi Ian, good to see you again around here!

Its no problem to speak English in the forum. Whats about the Grau replacement? Still convinced that it has not to be replaced yet, because its a young ship?

Best regards, Specialoperator.

[Veltro_28]

Great work Bjørnar


I understand the delay, no problem. Ah the dreaded "Apple green" Hawk, of course a variation of zinc chromate, and I remember having seen a picture of a peruvian machine in these colours, will try to obtain that picture, as it is extremely hard to obtain good quality pictures of CAP aircraft before 1943.

Dan Haguedorn is still puzzled about the colours of the "Camouflaged" peruvian hawks, and we have exchanged countless messages trying to solve the "mistery". I have ideas about the colours and I of course I will like to hear yours when you see the pictures.

All the best and thanks for posting your work.

Amaru

[Veltro_28]

Welcome back Bjørnar!! The profiles looks great! Do you have any details about the Hawks in service in Norway during the Second World War? As far I know, some of them were captured by the Luftwaffe, but I'm not sure about if they were used in combar, or purchased by Finland.

Greetings!

Los Hawks noruegos estaban en cajas al momento del ataque alemán, y si mal no recuerdo no eran mas de 8 los aeroplanos enviados antes de que la orden fuese embargada tras la caida de Noruega. Esas aeronaves capturadas fueron utilizadas brevemente por las JadgfliegerSchule de la Luftwaffe, antes de ser vendidas (algunas fuentes indican 7 y otras 8 ) a los cobeligerantes Finlandeses, quienes operaron los Hawk 75A-4 yA-6 inicialmente en el Escuadrón ó Lentolaivue (LeLv) 12, y luego en el LeLv 32, LeR 1, y otros, siempre con mucho exito contra la fuerza aerea soviética de la flota del Báltico. Finlandia utilizó ambas variantes del Hawk 75, las equipadas con motor "Twin wasp" y "Cyclone", siendo todos comprados a los alemanes, quienes los habian capturado a Francia y Noruega, respectivamente.

Veltro

[Veltro_28]

Interesante discusion acerca de los colores de los P-36G peruanos
Interesting discussion about peruvian P-36 colours:

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Peruvian P-36: to get an accurate one, should I use the Sp. Hobby or Academy kit?
May 23 2010 at 1:01 AM 34Drive (Login 34Drive)
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from IP address 71.68.27.192

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Peruvian machines appear to be late models. Does anyone tell me which kit is the best starting point? thanks


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Amaru Tincopa
(Login El_Amaru)
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Special Hobby Mohawk is the way to go, few pics inside May 23 2010, 5:28 AM


Use the non armored winshield, and you will have to paint the serials and national roundels, unless you are willing to wait until Antarki model release their planned decal set. (due last quarter 2010)





if you are not in a hurry, I suggest to wait a little.

Contact me off board if you need more info on CAP P-36Gs


Regards

Amaru in Peru


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Herb
(Login herbarnold99)
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67.60.128.154 Amaru, do you know... May 23 2010, 11:46 AM


what is hanging beneath the Hawks' wings in your lower photo? Is that training ordnance of some type?

Cheers,
Herb



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Amaru Tincopa
(Login El_Amaru)
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I believe is a special rack for practice bombs (empty) May 23 2010, 1:46 PM


but I could be wrong. Any P-36 experts out there?

Regards

Amaru in Peru


This message has been edited by El_Amaru from IP address on May 23, 2010 1:48 PM




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34Drive
(Login 34Drive)
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71.68.27.192 Thank you; gracias! May 23 2010, 11:49 AM


great photographs. What color is the P-36G in the top photo? Thank you very much.


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Steven Modeldad Eisenman
(Login modeldad)
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173.76.23.237 one more picture May 23 2010, 12:35 PM






There is no such thing as an unbuildable kit, just some kits one may consider not worth building.



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34Drive
(Login 34Drive)
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71.68.27.192 Steve May 23 2010, 12:41 PM


what is the color on that P-36?


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Steven Modeldad Eisenman
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173.76.23.237 Not sure. Amaru would know. May 23 2010, 12:56 PM






There is no such thing as an unbuildable kit, just some kits one may consider not worth building.



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Amaru Tincopa
(Login El_Amaru)
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Actually I am not 100% sure... May 23 2010, 1:40 PM


had numerous discussions about the matter of the peruvian P-36 colours.

Apparently a batch was delivered in green zinc chromate, a then followed by a second batch with some machines in overall dark green, others in what appears to be RAF dark green / dark earth camo, very worn(as in the picture provided by Steven), and finally others in dark green, light earth (?) such as this one:



Regards

Amaru in Peru


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Harold K
(Login HK72nd)
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99.92.50.44 Ouch! Must be a good story here Amaru n/t May 23 2010, 8:55 PM




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Graham Boak
(Login agboak)
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77.100.201.224 Could the light colour be US Sand? May 24 2010, 4:36 AM


This was seen on P-40s as part of disruptive camouflage, and is lighter than Dark Earth. Light Earth does seem rather less likely.


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Amaru Tincopa
(Login El_Amaru)
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on the crashed example?, it could be possible. May 24 2010, 8:32 AM


As in my post below, machines were used by the US Air Force for a short while, and they might have got repainted at some time during that period. Look at the rudder, with different coluring (british?).


Regards

Amaru


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Graham Boak
(Login agboak)
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77.100.201.224 Not "repainted", but original May 24 2010, 10:21 AM


There are colour photos showing this. OD and Sand in a British pattern, but in US service.


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Steven Modeldad Eisenman
(Login modeldad)
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173.76.23.237 OD and Sand was a field applied scheme. May 24 2010, 11:09 AM


Often using Corp of Engineer Sand applied over OD, or covering the OD.



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Steven Modeldad Eisenman
(Login modeldad)
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173.76.23.237 Sand not used as part of two colors. US DE faded badly to a sandy color. May 24 2010, 10:59 AM


The sand was applied over OD on the F-40Fs sent to NA. But that is later than the P-36s to Peru.



There is no such thing as an unbuildable kit, just some kits one may consider not worth building.



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Graham Boak
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77.100.201.224 Unconvinced by fading May 24 2010, 11:47 AM


There are several (two?) colour photos showing fairly fresh P-40s (D or E) in a two colour scheme. The brown is much lighter and pinker than RAF Dark Earth, and cetainly does not look faded. If not Sand, then what?

This is before the Fs, and the photos are in the continental US. See Jeff Ethell's books.


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Steven Modeldad Eisenman
(Login modeldad)
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173.76.23.237 The US DE was lighter and sandier than RAF DE. May 24 2010, 12:20 PM


Sand was not used in the DG/DE scheme.

The Desert Scheme used a darker brown for DE.



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JUAN R-S
(Login JUAN.RS)
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75.138.230.192 P36 ORIGIN AND COLORS May 23 2010, 11:18 PM


Hello all,

I recall that the p36's came from an order originally meant for the
Norwegian air force. When they folded, the aircraft was retained in Canada
and used for training. They were bought and shipped to Peru afterwards.
The colors may have been british scheme(temperate)when shipped. No idea
what the Peruvian techs did. Same mystery with the NA17's. Perhaps they
shared similar colors?


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Amaru Tincopa
(Login El_Amaru)
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Yes, several Douglas 8A-5 arrived in the same scheme as camuflaged P-36 May 24 2010, 8:29 AM


As I recall, the planes were used for training by Free Norway air forces in British Columbia, Canada, and then turned over to the US Air Force, whom used it for a short period. When then peruvian goverment -willing to replace their aging Caproni Ca.114 fighter fleet and their few remaining North American NA-50- asked for fighters to be sold, the US goverment offered the now almost derelict Hawks. The peruvian air force personnel were told to pick among the surplus machines to find the best and after that mechanings work to made them flyable. Those kept the original british colours.

There also were machines previously overhauled by the US personnel, left in green zinc chromate, that were only given peruvian insignias,as this profile by mr. Bjørnar Noras:



The machines kept their original finishes until they were sent to the repair shop for major maintenance, when they were deprived of paint and left in a bare metal finish.

The P-36 where used first by 11 Escuadron de Caza (Fighter Squadron), based in Talara, then trsnsferred to the 21 FS in Limatambo, and finally transferred to the 51 Training Squadron, in Lima,where they served until 1956.


Regards


Amaru


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Steven Modeldad Eisenman
(Login modeldad)
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173.76.23.237 About that color. May 24 2010, 10:37 AM


I have not found a reference to use of a tinted primer. The color appears to be closer to RLM02. It is quite possible that they were repainted in Canada. The Hawks for Norway were to be delivered in NMF. Although not clear, it seems the serial numbers were applied in Canada.
So when most went to Memphis for conversion to the Peruvian Specs, they were still in NMF.

As for the odd RNAF color, there is a B&W picture of a Persian A-9 to be delivered in 1941, It is fully painted and marked in PAF markings. What is odd is the color of the airframe soes not seem to look like any standard color. Could be the same color applied to the RNAF Hawks.



There is no such thing as an unbuildable kit, just some kits one may consider not worth building.



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This message has been edited by modeldad from IP address 173.76.23.237 on May 24, 2010 10:43 AM




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David L. Veres
(Login dlveres)
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74.109.217.119 P-36G delivery scheme: overall ANA 607 Sea Blue [!] May 24 2010, 9:25 AM


Believe it or not. I have seen a color slide that confirms this. The Cuerpo de Aeronautica Peruana eventually repainted P-36G's in local camouflage.

David


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Steven Modeldad Eisenman
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173.76.23.237 Perhaps only the last two delivered in 1945. But the others, NO! May 24 2010, 10:26 AM






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Graham Boak
(Login agboak)
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77.100.201.224 Trainer colours? May 24 2010, 10:50 AM


The Peruvian AF painted trainers in blue fuselage and yellow wings, like prewar USAAC types. Perhaps this is what you are seeing - are the wings visible?


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Steven Modeldad Eisenman
(Login modeldad)
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173.76.23.237 Is this Dark OD oe Non-Spec Sea Blue May 24 2010, 10:55 AM


The picture was taken in April 1943 in Peru and in the photo are two USMC officers on a mission in Peru.





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David L. Veres
(Login dlveres)
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74.109.217.119 appears to be overall matte Sea Blue, Graham May 24 2010, 11:32 AM


It's a color portrait shot of several CAP and US personnel before a P-36G. The finish is definitely matte. And the visible wing root portion shows no hint of "trainer" yellow.

Steven make a very good point about ANA 607. P-36G deliveries spanned years. And the image might depict one in 1944 or 1945.

Unfortunately, I don't have permission to duplicate it. Sorry!

Best,

DLV


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Current Topic - Peruvian P-36: to get an accurate one, should I use the Sp. Hobby or Academy kit?

<< Previous Topic | Next Topic >> Return to Index.


Veltro

[Veltro_28]

Entonces tenemos, sobre la coloración de los Hawks, lo siguiente:

1.Algunos llegaron en Olive Drab (OD) con Sand (S)
2.Otros llegaron en OD y Dark Earth (DE), probablemente equivalente al DE de la RAF.
3.Hubo ejemplares en Green Zinc Chromate (y aparentemente también en Yellow Zinc Chromate).
4.Los legendarios "negros" no son otra cosa que Non Specular Sea Blue (NSSB), que aparenta ser negro en las fotos.

5.Finalmente, hacia 1945 la mayoría de Hawks entraban en manto mayor, saliendo en acabado aluminio natural, con "antiglare" negro.

Es todo por ahora.

Salut

Veltro