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Thread: Fragatas Type 23

  1. #521
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    Hay una certeza bien clara que no sólo la Ach se verá obligada sino todas las del barrio a bajar el numero de unidades de superficie de cada flota (de 8 a 6) por el cada vez más caro valor de adquisición y operación de nuevas unidades. Y la tendencia es todas multirol ,nada de unidades especialistas.

    En el pasado llegamos a operar casi 20 unidades de superficie.En los '80 12 unidades.Ahora pasamos a 8.El próximo número es 6 unidades.

    Y eso ya hay que asumirlo ya.

    D...

  2. #522
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    Quote Originally Posted by DOORMAN View Post
    Hay una certeza bien clara que no sólo la Ach se verá obligada sino todas las del barrio a bajar el numero de unidades de superficie de cada flota (de 8 a 6) por el cada vez más caro valor de adquisición y operación de nuevas unidades. Y la tendencia es todas multirol ,nada de unidades especialistas.

    En el pasado llegamos a operar casi 20 unidades de superficie.En los '80 12 unidades.Ahora pasamos a 8.El próximo número es 6 unidades.

    Y eso ya hay que asumirlo ya.

    D...
    Lo que pides es un disparate, reducir a menos de 8 buques la Escuadra es poner en riesgo nuestra presencia maritima. Recuerda que nunca estan los 8 buques operativos por diversas razones, tienes 8 nominales, pero cuantos operacionales ya sea por rotacion, mantencion o alguno en modernizacion profunda. Lo logico es incrementar el tamaño de la Escuadra, pero no reducirla...

  3. #523
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    El proyecto Tridente al final, iban a ser solo 6 unidades de fragatas Meko A 200 que iban a reemplazar a 4 conties y 4 Leanders.


    Las tareas de presencia no solo lo hace una fragata.Un SSK también lo hace,y sobre todo un patrullero OPV,de los cuales va en aumento de números para reemplazar a las FAC clásicas.

    Ecuador,Colombia, Uruguay, Islandia,Portugal, Bélgica y muchos países y armadas del mundo operan un bajo número de unidades de superficie y no tienen problemas de soberanía.

    El asunto es que si se opta por comprar unidades nuevas,se tendrá que tener un desembolso muy importante: desde USD $700 millones para arriba para una fragata mediana y multirol.

    Y será un lujo tener y mantener fragatas especializadas. Cuando la tendencia será la fragata multirol.

    Incluso vamos a ver patrulleros OPV con doble propósito reemplazando la labor de misileras costeras(FAC)además de la labor propia.

    D...
    Last edited by DOORMAN; 24-10-2018 at 07:45 PM.

  4. #524
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    Vamos que ninguno de los países aludidos tiene ni los km de costa efectiva ni menos la extensión de responsabilidad que tiene Pelotillehue.



    Y sobre Tridente, empezamos con ocho.

    Año 173 - Nro. 59412 - Viernes 18 de Agosto de 2000

    Renovación de la Escuadra

    Armada inicia ofensiva para concretar proyecto Tridente

    Plantea construir en Chile ocho fragatas por US$ 1.600 millones, por lo que pide aporte gubernamental de US$ 800 millones en veinte años
    http://www.mercuriovalpo.cl/site/edi...818004502.html

    Después estirando el chicle hasta llegar a cuatro:

    Chile y Alemania en buen pie para negociaciones sobre proyecto "Tridente"

    Así lo afirmó el ministro de Defensa alemán, Rudolf Scharping, quien indicó que, aunque aún hay que aclarar algunos puntos pendientes, "no hay problemas" en las conversaciones que mantienen ambos países sobre el tema.

    20 de Mayo de 2001 | 10:05 | DPA SANTIAGO.-

    El ministro de Defensa alemán, Rudolf Scharping, declaró en Santiago que no había ningún tipo de obstáculos en las negociaciones entre Alemania y Chile para la construcción de cuatro fragatas destinadas a la marina chilena, aunque reconoció que Chile debe aún aclarar "algunos puntos pendientes" en los cuales él no se puede "entrometer".
    Fuente: Emol.com - https://www.emol.com/noticias/nacion...-tridente.html



    Entiendo que en ningún momento estuvieron comprometidas las ocho unidades nominales de la Escuadra entre nuevas y/o usadas.
    Vienen los chilenos...

  5. #525
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    Lo que plantea Doorman me parece lo más realista, aunque pueda no gustarnos. Con los costos de unidades nuevas y poca disponibilidad de usadas, no hay mucho que hacer...

  6. #526
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    En esa época, se pensó hasta la convivencia entre las mekos alemanas con las Leander Lynch y Condell(que fueron vendidas a Ecuador)por eso fueron recorridas a fondo para extenderle la vida.

    El problema era que no sabíamos cuanto nos ibamos demorar a poner en servicio a la primera Meko chilena.
    La suerte estuvo de nuestro lado.Y no creo que se vuelva a repetir.

    D...

  7. #527
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    Quote Originally Posted by red_star View Post
    Lo que plantea Doorman me parece lo más realista, aunque pueda no gustarnos. Con los costos de unidades nuevas y poca disponibilidad de usadas, no hay mucho que hacer...
    Yo también discrepo.

    Se puede, y se debe mantener 8 por un tema de rotación mínima. A razón de 1 en ejercicio internacional, 1 en upgrade, 1 en PID, más una en rotación/descanso post ejercicio. Te quedan 4 disponibles (tienes al menos una task force). Si fuesen 6 las fragatas de la Escuadra, las disponibles estarían en torno a las 2 unidades, es decir, muy poco en términos de contundencia y redundancia para imprevistos. Ni decir cuando eso lo pones el el contexto de 30 millones de km2 de mar donde se debe tener presencia o law enforcement (no es asimilable el ejemplo de países minúsculos como Portugal, Ecuador o Bélgica)

    Tampoco necesitas por costos tener 8 nuevas, bien puedes hacer ciclos con 4 nuevas (ciclo de 30 años) y 4 usadas (dos ciclos de 15 años). Así logras dos cosas, 1) no recargas tanto la billetera con tanto buque nuevo y 2) no dependes en exceso del mercado de segunda mano al necesitar sólo 4 en vez de 8. Un mix nos permite tener flexibilidad de adaptación a las condiciones del medio.

    Hay otras cosas que cortar, como las misileras, antes que cortar fragatas.

    Saludos

  8. #528
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    Default HARPOON Upgrade para varios usuarios en vista a una extensión del tiempo de operación

    United Kingdom purchases Harpoon missile upgrades and support in order to keep system in service longer

    By George Allison - December 18, 2017

    The US, UK and other nations have purchased integrated logistics and engineering services support for their Harpoon missiles.

    The Harpoon anti-ship missile was due to be retired from Royal Navy service in 2018, that however later changed. According to a government spokesperson earlier in the year: “There is work ongoing to look at options for longer extension in service.”

    According to a contract award notification:

    “The Boeing Co., St. Louis, Missouri, is being awarded $10,326,551 for firm-fixed-price, delivery order N0001918F0520 against a previously issued basic ordering agreement (N00019-16-G-0001). This delivery order provides for procurement of Harpoon/SLAM-ER missile system and Harpoon launch systems follow-on integrated logistics and engineering services support for the Navy; and various foreign military sales (FMS) customers.

    Work will be performed in St. Charles, Missouri (91.84 percent); St. Louis, Missouri (5.47 percent); Yorktown, Virginia (2.64 percent); and Oklahoma City, Oklahoma 0(.05 percent), and is expected to be completed in February 2020. Fiscal 2018 operations and maintenance (Navy); and foreign military sales funds in the amount of $10,326,551 are being obligated on this award; $2,473,484 of which will expire at the end of the current fiscal year.

    This contract combines purchases for the Navy ($2,473,484; 23.95 percent); and the governments of Korea ($1,035,098; 10.02 percent); Taiwan ($779,021; 7.54 percent); Turkey ($677,959; 6.57 percent); Egypt ($635,628; 6.16 percent); Japan ($611,881; 5.93 percent); Saudi Arabia ($595,464; 5.77 percent); Australia ($445,323; 4.31 percent); United Kingdom ($406,934; 3.94 percent); India ($334,131; 3.24 percent); Canada ($316,590; 3.06 percent); Chile ($309,813; 3 percent); Singapore ($252,498; 2.45 percent); Israel ($251,591; 2.44 percent); Thailand ($228,085; 2.21 percent); Bahrain ($166,383; 1.60 percent); United Arab Emirates ($159,890; 1.55 percent); Kuwait ($133,398; 1.29 percent); Oman ($127,837; 1.24 percent); Malaysia ($121,832; 1.18 percent); Germany ($85,178; 0.82 percent); Portugal ($72,060; 0.70 percent); Netherlands ($63,884; 0.62 percent); and Denmark ($42,589; 0.41 percent) under the Foreign Military Sales program. The Naval Air Systems Command, Patuxent River, Maryland, is the contracting activity.”

    Royal Navy ships were originally to lose anti-ship missile capability in 2018 when the Harpoon missile is withdrawn with a replacement not due until ‘around 2030’.

    As we reported last year, Harriett Baldwin and her French counterpart signed an agreement to explore future long range weapons for the Royal and French Navies and Air Forces with the aim of replacing the Harpoon anti-ship missile and the Storm Shadow cruise missile as well as an array of French weapon types.

    French arms procurement chief Collet-Billon said last year at the meeting:

    “We are launching today a major new phase in our bilateral cooperation, by planning together a generation of missiles, successor to the Harpoon, SCALP and Storm Shadow. The FC/ASW (future cruise/anti-ship weapon) programme’s aim is to have by around 2030 a new generation of missiles.”

    The missiles however will not be ready to replace Harpoon until 2030, leaving the Type 26 Frigates without any real means to engage surface warships aside from their helicopters.
    https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/unit...rades-support/

    Otra que indica lo mismo desde Janes: https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/harp...sile-deferred/

    Es decir, al menos en UK hay Harpoon hasta 2030 y al igual que éste, distintos países trabajan con miras a upgrades que permitan su extensión mientras adoptan la siguiente generacion de misiles.

    En nuestro caso, hay opciones:

    Luego de sus primeros contratos de upgrade con la US Navy, el misil mejorado se pasó a llamar Harpoon Block II+

    La proyección de upgrades para la US Navy es de 210 unidades a 2023.

    Navy's Old Harpoon Anti-Ship Missile To Get New Tricks After Scoring Six For Six At RIMPAC

    The Harpoon anti-ship missile, a staple in allied navies around the world, may be a 40-year-old design, but it still has a lot of fight left in it.

    BY TYLER ROGOWAYAUGUST 1, 2018

    TYLER ROGOWAYView Tyler Rogoway's Articles twitter.com/Aviation_Intel

    It may be over four decades after it initially entered service, but the U/R/AGM-84 Harpoon anti-ship cruise missile still is no slouch and for what it may lack in cutting-edge features, it seems to make up for in raw reliability. Additionally, even after all this time and a number of increasingly capable variants being fielded, the Harpoon still has more capacity left for enhancements. In fact, Congress has just approved tens of millions of dollars in funds to upgrade a number of these weapons that are already in the U.S. Navy's inventory.

    During the U.S. Navy's giant Rim of The Pacific (RIMPAC) international naval exercises, which occurs every other year off the coast of Hawaii, six Harpoons of various sub-types were fired off at targets, which include two decommissioned warships, the ex-USS Racine and the ex-USS McKlusky. These six missiles were fired from U.S. and Australian P-8 Poseidon maritime patrol aircraft in the air, from the Singaporean frigate RSS Tenacious on the ocean's surface, and from an American Los Angeles class fast attack submarine from below the waves.

    Out of the six missiles fired, every one of them worked just as advertised, resulting in an awesome showing for Boeing's supposedly near-obsolete anti-ship missile.

    The firing from USS Olympia was particularly interesting as it was the first time an American submarine had been equipped yet alone fired a Harpoon in over two decades. We talked all about this special and somewhat peculiar event in this past article.

    Some 30 allies, along with the U.S. Navy continue to field Harpoon in various forms, so it's not as if the missile is going anywhere anytime soon. But with the new upgrade package, dubbed the Block II+, it will feature at least some of the key capabilities of the latest anti-ship missiles that are now becoming the darlings of well-financed western navies, including the United State's own seagoing force.

    These upgrades include the internationally exported Block II's GPS receiver and flight control system that will help the missile navigate its way to its target more precisely even in complex littoral environments and a two-way data-link (Strike Common Weapon Data-Link) to that allows the missile to be retargeted mid-flight.

    Boeing also stresses that the Block II+ is 'all weather' and its performance is not degraded by rain. This is clearly in reference to other seeker arrangements that may have trouble prosecuting maritime targets when there is sizeable precipitation—which is very common in the maritime combat environment. They are probably referencing the imaging infrared seekers found on anti-ship capable missiles like the Tactical Tomahawk Block IV, Naval Strike Missile, LRASM, and many of the newest batch of high-end anti-ship missiles. The Harpoon uses an active radar seeker to detect its target once in the target area and to make its terminal attack run.

    Although the Harpoon lacks high speed or low-observability like the most advanced anti-ship missiles that are on the market around the world today, the Block II+ offers a logical set of features balanced against cost and risk that still combine to form a formidable threat to potential maritime foes.

    And above all else, when it comes to anti-ship missiles, quantity has a quality all its own. Firing multiple missiles at a single target can go a long way when it comes to overcoming a ship's point defenses, especially in all but the highest-end combat situations. And for those situations, the Navy is developing other, longer-range and more survivable options to layer into its combat doctrine as well. Just the fact that the Harpoon uses active radar homing is reason enough for it to exist alongside its new, high-end, imaging-infrared guided anti-ship missile competitors.

    It's also worth mentioning that when it comes to anti-surface warfare operations, presence is key above all else. Harpoon is out there in force already, and you can't shoot at the bad guy with powerpoint presentation or a missile development program.

    Considering the Harpoons to be upgraded are already bought and paid for—nearly 8,000 have been delivered in total over the life of the program—enhancing them seems logical. According to 2019 budget documents, each Harpoon Block II+ upgrade kit runs about $240,000. This is not big dollars when it comes to modern cruise missile prices. Under the latest budget just passed by the Senate, the Navy would seem to be set to receive roughly double the number of upgrade kits it had requested, or around 100 missiles and other associated items, worth roughly $26.5M in total. This seems quite reasonable considering the capability being gained.



    (...)

    There's a lot of interesting information in here, but one tangental fact worth mentioning is apparently Lockheed's stealthy and very smart LRASM, was also fired, or was supposed to be fired during, during the first SINKEX drill. This hadn't been disclosed prior to this interview, at least to our knowledge.

    After the Harpoon's great success at RIMPAC, and Olympia's live-fire in particular, the Navy brass in Washington, D.C. will have to decide if they want to place Harpoon back aboard its fast attack submarines. But considering the fact that the Navy wants its submarine force to get back into the anti-ship missile firing game, and in a very high-end and exotic fashion via its secretive Sea Dragon program, the Harpoon could be the perfect lower-end capability in a flexible high-low capability mix of submarine-launched anti-ship missile capabilities. And seeing as it is an off-the-shelf and proven solution, it almost seems too glaringly logical for the Navy brass shoot-down.

    Boeing has also developed a new extended-range variant of the Harpoon, the Harpoon Block II+ ER, which features the same Block II+ capabilities but with double the weapon's current range of around 80 miles. This missile features a lighter warhead—300lbs instead of 500lbs—and other alternations to provide far greater reach.

    The Navy passed over the Harpoon Block II+ ER for the Naval Strike Missile recently as part of an initiative to outfit its Littoral Combat Ships and future frigate, the FFG(X), with an over-the-horizon anti-ship cruise missile, but Boeing is continuing with the type's development and is marketing it abroad. Also, the Army still hasn't decided what anti-ship missile it will buy, and this latest Harpoon variant could be a contender.

    So there you have it, the Harpoon anti-ship cruise missile, still going strong as it enters its fifth decade of front-line service.

    Contact the author: Tyler@thedrive.com
    http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone...-six-at-rimpac reporte íntegro en el link

    Un close up de la situación del HARPOON Block II+ que se declarará operacional este año 2018

    The venerable anti-ship missile is being upgraded by Boeing to a Block II+ version, modifications that the House and Senate authorizers backed to the tune of $26.8 million, according to the NDAA conference report. The money must still be appropriated by a separate committee. The House of Representatives passed the NDAA on Thursday. It awaits passage in the Senate and President Donald Trump’s signatures.

    The funding, which is $12 million more than what the Navy asked for, would go to the Block II+ upgrades, which include GPS and a data link that allows operators to change the missile’s target in flight.

    The U.S. Navy expects to declare initial operational capability on Harpoon Block II+ this year, according to a recent Boeing release, and said it continues to develop an extended-range Harpoon.

    The U.S. and partner nations successfully fired six Harpoons at RIMPAC, including a Harpoon from the attack submarine Olympia, which marks the first time the missile has been fired from a sub in more than 20 years, according to a Boeing news release.

    Both Australian and American P-8 aircraft also fired Harpoons. While Boeing is working to upgrade the Harpoon, which can be fired from an F/A-18, a P-8 or from canisters on a ship, Raytheon is gunning for their business. (...)
    .
    https://www.defensenews.com/naval/20...from-congress/

    Vaya que se tiran misiles en el RIMPAC...

    Esperamos a ver el inminente estreno del Block II+ y el desarrollo del Block II+ ER.

    Saludos

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